March 28, 2024, 10:01:08

Author Topic: CEP Revival?  (Read 52741 times)

Offline Sargoth

  • Petty Officer
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: 4
    • View Profile
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2016, 20:20:42 »
The one that shipped with the the game. Nexus also doesn't seem to care about seams, even though I fixed the texture it's very obvious
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 23:11:59 by Sargoth »

Offline GeoModder

  • Chief Petty Officer
  • **
  • Posts: 279
  • Karma: 4
    • View Profile
    • http://
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2016, 20:35:42 »
I noticed that too on my reversed Mars texture.

Have you tried using your texture on jstubbles sphere mesh (battlestar galactica mod, version 4.1-4.5 I believe) to see if the seem disappears?

Something else, could you check your texture/planets folder and tell me if the sol_0503_europa texture on your end is another size then 683 kb? I'm not sure if the one on my end was one I created years ago, or the original one.

Offline The Old Dragon

  • Ensign
  • ***
  • Posts: 362
  • Karma: 6
    • View Profile
    • http://
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2016, 23:06:13 »
Hi Geo,

My copy of the sol_0503_europa texture  is 683kb, so I'd say you're looking at the original.
Better to look the fool by asking, then prove them right with ignorance.

Offline Sargoth

  • Petty Officer
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: 4
    • View Profile
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2016, 23:18:03 »
I noticed that too on my reversed Mars texture.

Have you tried using your texture on jstubbles sphere mesh (battlestar galactica mod, version 4.1-4.5 I believe) to see if the seem disappears?

Don't have that mesh, and I havent seen a galactica mod in ages. I tried going over in both 3d max and mudbox. Also made sure the seam was seamless

Offline Sargoth

  • Petty Officer
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: 4
    • View Profile
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2016, 01:28:29 »
Couldn't get the mesh to function ingame. But I thought I'd show what I mean by "I have no seams, but nexus makes me scream"

http://imgur.com/a/8Jk0S

Yeah, the rendered pics uses the leonis mesh

Offline GeoModder

  • Chief Petty Officer
  • **
  • Posts: 279
  • Karma: 4
    • View Profile
    • http://
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2016, 11:05:50 »
I've sent you a response PM regarding the mesh, Sargoth.

Offline Sargoth

  • Petty Officer
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: 4
    • View Profile
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2016, 12:07:40 »
Yeah, I did as you suggested. and the mesh loaded fine. Still the problem with a seam there. But that seems to be the mesh fault rather than texture :-\

Offline GeoModder

  • Chief Petty Officer
  • **
  • Posts: 279
  • Karma: 4
    • View Profile
    • http://
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2016, 12:15:00 »
Does the original texture show a seam as well on the sphere mesh at your end?

Offline Sargoth

  • Petty Officer
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Karma: 4
    • View Profile
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2016, 15:16:45 »
Both yes and no. It has a seam in the texture. It doesn't show the same tear as I'm getting from the other one.

Offline GeoModder

  • Chief Petty Officer
  • **
  • Posts: 279
  • Karma: 4
    • View Profile
    • http://
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2016, 22:23:55 »
Weird. Try as I might, I can't spot a seam when using the planet_Leonis_a texture.

Offline Multigun

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2016, 14:49:28 »
Hi there,

Directed by Sargoth to this forum topic specifically, so thought I would make a quick post. Basically, where do you need me? As I talked about on Steam, I am an aspiring 3D artist who is needing some experience under my belt. I graduated with a bachelors degree in Digital Art last June with a "focus" in 3D design, but 95% of that was me teaching myself through tutorials or digitaltutors.com. Put it this way, in this 4 year local college I went to, there was one 3D modeling class with an instructor whose area of expertise was actually 2D animation. Yup.....But hey, at least I don't have any debt to deal with post graduation.

So anyways, just needing some direction. Which tools should I download (link I was given by Draconicdreams on steam, http://%20http//arparso.de/nexus/forum/index.php/board,14.0.html, doesn't work), any guides I should read (been going over this one, for example -> http://nexusthegame.net/wiki/Guide_to_Modelling_Parameters, what work are you needing help with, texture size (2k?), texture types (diffuse/color, spec maps, bump maps or normal (I assume Bump, game is probably too old for Normal) ) stuff like that. Here's some relevant information. 

Areas of Experience/Interests:
3D Modeling, Hard Surface
UV Mapping
Texturing (Specifically I have been focusing on the PBR system, but I'm sure I can work in the older systems with spec and bump maps)
UE4 (For what it's worth anyways. Just saying I have experience using a game engine is all)

Software:
Maya LT
Photoshop
allgorithmic suite (Designer, Painter, Bitmap2Material)
3D Coat (Fantastic for UV Mapping, by the way)
Knald
Various other free based texture software

Just let me know where I can help.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 14:54:34 by Multigun »

Offline GeoModder

  • Chief Petty Officer
  • **
  • Posts: 279
  • Karma: 4
    • View Profile
    • http://
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2016, 16:56:40 »
Welcome to the forums.
The artstuff of the game is largely beyond me. I'd say The Old Dragon is the man to ask for.

The tool link you showed us seems a corrupt one. Perhaps this is the one Dragon meant.

Offline Multigun

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2016, 17:56:36 »
Welcome to the forums.
The artstuff of the game is largely beyond me. I'd say The Old Dragon is the man to ask for.

The tool link you showed us seems a corrupt one. Perhaps this is the one Dragon meant.


Probably, he suggested I download the model and texture tools created by Arparso, which are both listed in the link you sent. Thanks for the help.

Offline The Old Dragon

  • Ensign
  • ***
  • Posts: 362
  • Karma: 6
    • View Profile
    • http://
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2016, 23:09:07 »
Hi Multigun,

First of all, welcome to the Skirmisher forums and second, my apologies for the dodgy link. Hate it when I get those wrong :(, but Geo gave you a link to the right place.
Thank you Geo.

That's certainly an impressive read Multigun, sorry if it seems a daft question, but do you have a copy of Nexus? Although not quite full with it's explanations, the modding manual has a wealth of info for you.
And do you have 'Dropbox' installed on your system - that will be required to get access to the CEP folders.

Models for Nexus will need to be in either .LWO or .LWS format, although they can be initially built in whichever format your're comfortable with. Finished textures must be .TGA format and to the power of 2. The manual states that the maximum size is 2048 pixels, though I'm sure I've had them at 4096 before. Again, make them in whichever format and size is comfortable and then save them as .TGA's ready for conversion. Nexus supports additional mapping types (bump, spec, luminosity and a few other little tricks).

Max poly count is around the 20k range, but I'd try to keep them below 17k just to give Nexus a little breathing room. Apart from what's on the NexusWiki, I don't think there are many guides as such.

Tasks at this point would include improving model detail  (through higher poly models and new textures) and also trying to improve the background textures, there's an awful lot of them to do ;)

Once you get dropbox sorted out, pm me your email and I'll send you an invite.
Better to look the fool by asking, then prove them right with ignorance.

Offline Multigun

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2016, 01:17:55 »
Hi Multigun,

First of all, welcome to the Skirmisher forums and second, my apologies for the dodgy link. Hate it when I get those wrong :(, but Geo gave you a link to the right place.
Thank you Geo.

No probs

Quote from: The Old Dragon
That's certainly an impressive read Multigun, sorry if it seems a daft question, but do you have a copy of Nexus? Although not quite full with it's explanations, the modding manual has a wealth of info for you.
And do you have 'Dropbox' installed on your system - that will be required to get access to the CEP folders.

Yes, just bought the Steam version yesterday. Even have the old disc copy collecting dust on my shelf. I'll admit I haven't played the game in years, to the point I barely remember it other then that I enjoyed it, but the announcement that Nexus license was purchased got me excited, naturally.

Edit: Found the modding manual in the install folder in Steam. I'll give it a read.

Dropbox installed.

Quote from: The Old Dragon

Models for Nexus will need to be in either .LWO or .LWS format, although they can be initially built in whichever format your're comfortable with. Finished textures must be .TGA format and to the power of 2. The manual states that the maximum size is 2048 pixels, though I'm sure I've had them at 4096 before. Again, make them in whichever format and size is comfortable and then save them as .TGA's ready for conversion. Nexus supports additional mapping types (bump, spec, luminosity and a few other little tricks).

I assume the modding tools provided on the website has an .obj or .fbx converter to the .LWO or .LWS format. Maya LT is pretty great, but it's exporting is limited to Maya LT, .obj, .fbx, or direct export into UE4 or Unity. 

Power of 2, yes that's what I meant by 2k, sorry for the confusion. It's easier to down size in resolution then it is to upgrade, so I'll just create them at 4k for portfolio purposes if nothing else, and can convert to 2k as needed. I'll likely be using a combination of software for the textures, but Designer specifically will do wonders and can quickly provide exported versions of various texture resolutions as needed.

Quote from: The Old Dragon
Max poly count is around the 20k range, but I'd try to keep them below 17k just to give Nexus a little breathing room. Apart from what's on the NexusWiki, I don't think there are many guides as such.

Tasks at this point would include improving model detail  (through higher poly models and new textures) and also trying to improve the background textures, there's an awful lot of them to do ;)

Once you get dropbox sorted out, pm me your email and I'll send you an invite.

17k seems fine for an older game. I'm sure I can work with that, Maya LT export limitations are in the 100,000's of poly's last I checked so should be good to go there.

PM sent.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 04:59:50 by Multigun »

Offline The Old Dragon

  • Ensign
  • ***
  • Posts: 362
  • Karma: 6
    • View Profile
    • http://
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2016, 08:51:35 »
Invitation sent.

To begin with, can you start with the following models?

Kissaki.msh
Kissaki(b).msh
Kissaki_support_kontainer_transporter.msh1`

To get around the format issue on models, if you save them in .OBJ format and place them in the CEP folder (you can create your own subfolder), I can then put them through lightwave.

Just to completely remove any confusion on texture size, the manual states...

Width and height can differ, but both factors must be powers of two, and cannot be larger than 2048. The figures can therefore be: 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, and 2048.



« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 09:01:22 by The Old Dragon »
Better to look the fool by asking, then prove them right with ignorance.

Offline Multigun

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2016, 11:16:52 »
Invitation sent.

To begin with, can you start with the following models?

Kissaki.msh
Kissaki(b).msh
Kissaki_support_kontainer_transporter.msh1`

To get around the format issue on models, if you save them in .OBJ format and place them in the CEP folder (you can create your own subfolder), I can then put them through lightwave.

Just to completely remove any confusion on texture size, the manual states...

Width and height can differ, but both factors must be powers of two, and cannot be larger than 2048. The figures can therefore be: 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, and 2048.

Sure, just need to study up on the manual and what not. Haven't had the chance to read through it just yet. I haven't heard of lightwave before. Are you using it to convert the .OBJ to the appropriate format for Nexus? Or are you doing specific tasks with the models in lightwave?

I am going to openly assume you will want the UV maps done, which isn't an issue. And yes, 2048 I know what you meant :) Better safe then sorry though!

I will read through the manual tomorrow and post my questions if need be. I assume there will be a little bit of a learning curve, but that's part of the fun :)

Offline The Old Dragon

  • Ensign
  • ***
  • Posts: 362
  • Karma: 6
    • View Profile
    • http://
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2016, 15:14:37 »
Lightwave is the 3D art program used by the original devs to create the models. It comes in two parts - in modeller, you can create anything you want really and attach your textures files (if you're good with it though, I think you can even texture your models with it!) and then you have layout. With this part you can create your animations and renders.

Incidentally, I think it was also used in the newer BSG (amongst probably countless other projects) series to create the space scenes and ships... I seem to recall the battlestars had a poly count round the 3 million mark. I wouldn't like the task of mapping that one :s

As I mentioned earlier, the first task is to improve the models themselves (if possible), which would then require new UV maps and then onto trying to improve the textures for them. Hopefully, newer programs and techniques will let us create more realistic textures. However, if the model itself can't be improved, then we can use the existing texture files as templates to to create new ones without the need to remap the UV's.

Nexus comes with it's own converting tools to turn the models and textures into game readable files - it's these that require the models and textures to be in certain formats.
Better to look the fool by asking, then prove them right with ignorance.

Offline Multigun

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2016, 23:46:24 »
3 million poly's...Ya, UV mapping can be a lot of hard work but 3 million? That's downright scary. Makes sense about the required formatting thing. As long as you have the tools to take an .obj or .fbx and convert it into the proper format, no probs.

I don't see how improving existing models wouldn't be possible, unless there is some sort of engine or code limitation. My understanding is that you can create your very own models, so shouldn't be an issue to improve existing models.

UV mapping tools in the latest iteration of Maya have made the process much easier, but I typically throw the mesh through 3D Coat first. 3D Coat lets you draw where you want your seams to be; its basically amazing. So I'm not worried about UV mapping in the least, just takes a bit of time and effort :) Looking forward to getting started.

Offline Multigun

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2016, 12:31:46 »
As I run into issues and need help, have updates I want to report/show, etc, where should I post? Update this forum post, create my own, email, add something to dropbox, etc?

For the time being, I'll just update this post. I am having issues importing an .obj into Maya LT. I have had this issue in the past and have used .fbx to get around it. What happens is I go to import it, and Maya does nothing after the update. Nothing shows up in the viewport, nothing shows up in the Outliner (essentially a list of all the objects in the scene), nothing. I used some sort of 3D viewer that apparently comes with Windows 10 (who knew), and it displays the mesh just fine in that so the .obj isn't corrupted to my knowledge.

I'll add the .obj's to dropbox under "Multigun's" files. Could you throw them into Lightwave and convert them into an .fbx for me? Just a short term workaround while I try and figure out why Maya hates me and .obj's. I'll download Blender in the mean time and install it after I wake up, haven't used Blender before but I assume it has an .obj importer and an .fbx save (I hope) and I assume I can figure out the software even though I haven't used it before.

Edit:

OK I am having issues with just the Kissaki.obj file. The other two seem to be fine. Again though, the Windows 10 viewer see's the mesh fine, but not Maya. Still will probably need that .fbx
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 12:45:38 by Multigun »

Offline The Old Dragon

  • Ensign
  • ***
  • Posts: 362
  • Karma: 6
    • View Profile
    • http://
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2016, 23:33:51 »
All converted for you Multigun. Any questions or issues, post here on the forums (in the appropriate thread,of course) or use the Chat Log in the CEP folder, we'll do our best to help.

For completed tasks, pop the finished file in the correct CEP subfolder and update the change log and assigned tasks sheet. Anything else pop them in your 'personal' folder and update the chat log with your news/requests .
Better to look the fool by asking, then prove them right with ignorance.

Offline Multigun

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2016, 03:26:44 »
Appreciate the conversion :) Had a couple questions that came up.

1. Does the mesh have to be triangulated prior to importing into Nexus? UE4 does it automatically, but that is of course a much newer engine. Pretty sure there is a Maya option somewhere to triangulate a mesh, just have to remember where.

2. Are all parts of the model supposed to combined into one model or keep separated ? The .obj version of kissaki_b has multiple pieces that are separated out (I assumed for maybe animation?). The .fbx of kissaki has the meshes combined together, though that could just be how you exported it out of Lightwave. If that's the case, I'll need to know what parts of the mesh to not combine into the rest of the model so as to allow animation or whatever reason the game engine requires them to be separated out (maybe check your Lightwave export settings?)

3. This is a general question, and a question I have been trying to figure out myself for a while. Does the material  you assign in your 3D modeling program ultimately matter? What I mean by that is, if you have a shiny material, but you use various textures to drive how shiny or reflective an object is, and you aren't using your 3D engine for the rendering/final look, does the actual material matter?

How this impacts this specific project, is that Maya LT only comes with the ability to assign a Phong Material. I can assign various versions of a Phong to the model for being able to assign different texture maps to different areas easily, but it is ultimately just a Phong. 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 03:37:42 by Multigun »

Offline The Old Dragon

  • Ensign
  • ***
  • Posts: 362
  • Karma: 6
    • View Profile
    • http://
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2016, 13:54:18 »
Took a little research (had to google what a Phong  ). To begin with, I’d just like to point out that I’m round the hobbyist/amateur level when it comes round to 3D art. When there’s a particular effect or process that I’m trying to do, I look for tutorials and whatnot on the net to learn at the time. My art training ended at school, I’m afraid ;)

1)   I kind of suspect Nexus (or its converter) doesn’t. On occasion I’ve had a model with an odd shaped poly that looked good in LW but once converted, that odd section was changed. Personally, I prefer to triangulate the polys myself as (especially on smoothed out sections) as it can reduce or remove artefacts.
As for Maya, I did a quick google search… I think what you’re looking for is under Meshes > Triangulate.

2)   The majority of the model goes in one layer, while moving parts need to go in separate layers. So each dock door (because they move individually) would require its own layer, whereas something like a radar dish or a rotating ring, that entire section would go in a layer of its own as the polys required to make it need to move together.
The best way to figure out which sections need their own layers would be to use Nexus’s model viewer and watch the animations on the original models (1 - 0 starts them, crtl + 1 - 0 stops them).

3)   If I understand this one correctly, how much a section shines is based on the spec map that gets loaded into the colour maps alpha channel. Things like reflection or transparency also require some settings in LW so that the converter understands what that section is supposed to look like. But for the most part, I try to achieve the visual effects in photoshop as much as possible. Descriptions of the various texture maps and how to use them start on page 14 of the modding manual.
Better to look the fool by asking, then prove them right with ignorance.

Offline Multigun

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2016, 14:18:22 »
Took a little research (had to google what a Phong  ). To begin with, I’d just like to point out that I’m round the hobbyist/amateur level when it comes round to 3D art. When there’s a particular effect or process that I’m trying to do, I look for tutorials and whatnot on the net to learn at the time. My art training ended at school, I’m afraid ;)

Appreciate the googling :)

Quote from: The Old Dragon link
1)   I kind of suspect Nexus (or its converter) doesn’t. On occasion I’ve had a model with an odd shaped poly that looked good in LW but once converted, that odd section was changed. Personally, I prefer to triangulate the polys myself as (especially on smoothed out sections) as it can reduce or remove artefacts.
As for Maya, I did a quick google search… I think what you’re looking for is under Meshes > Triangulate.

Ah makes sense. Yes I found it in Maya :) Having triangulations in the mesh will of course increase the poly count, but when the original ship only has 3k poly's, that still gives me a ton of room to play with.

Quote from: The Old Dragon link
2)   The majority of the model goes in one layer, while moving parts need to go in separate layers. So each dock door (because they move individually) would require its own layer, whereas something like a radar dish or a rotating ring, that entire section would go in a layer of its own as the polys required to make it need to move together.
The best way to figure out which sections need their own layers would be to use Nexus’s model viewer and watch the animations on the original models (1 - 0 starts them, crtl + 1 - 0 stops them).

Didn't even realize that there was a Nexus model viewer and that you could view the animations in it. That's helpful!

Quote from: The Old Dragon link
3)   If I understand this one correctly, how much a section shines is based on the spec map that gets loaded into the colour maps alpha channel. Things like reflection or transparency also require some settings in LW so that the converter understands what that section is supposed to look like. But for the most part, I try to achieve the visual effects in photoshop as much as possible. Descriptions of the various texture maps and how to use them start on page 14 of the modding manual.

Right that's basically what I was saying. In Maya, a phong is a type of material, kind of a plasticy look. In the full version of Maya, there is also a blinn, which is used for metal type surfaces, and lambert for non reflective surfaces, among others that I never used. I do my texturing in a combination of Photoshop,Bitmap2Material, Substance Painter, and Substance Designer.

What got me wondering was if I assign a phong, a blinn, or a lambert to a model prior to exporting the model into say, Substance Designer, for working on the texture, will it impact the actual final look versus I had assigned a blinn instead (if that was even possible since I'm using the Indie version of Maya and thus can only use phongs). It's probably an answer you can't answer. My suspicion is that no, it doesn't matter, since the texture maps are the driving force in how it ultimately looks. But I'm not 100% certain about it.

My Update:

Started working on it today. I'm about to hit the sack, but didn't make much progress. I had a decent chunk done, then it occurred to me that maybe all the various meshes that were kept separate was done intentionally for either animation, or being able to target certain parts of the ship, or something. Decided to instead just use the existing mesh and slowly work my way around and use them as a reference and improve on them in whatever way I can.

Now that I know that a Nexus model viewer exists, I'll have to locate it (I assume its either a mod tool on this website, or in the install folder) and give it a whirl. I think once I have a better understanding of how the ship operates it'll be a lot easier for me going forward.

Long term I'll have to read more up on how to do the assign engine points, and gun turret stuff, and whatever else I need to do. Also wonder how the animations will work, does somebody have to re-do the animations for various things (if required)?

Offline GeoModder

  • Chief Petty Officer
  • **
  • Posts: 279
  • Karma: 4
    • View Profile
    • http://
Re: CEP Revival?
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2016, 15:51:57 »
Now that I know that a Nexus model viewer exists, I'll have to locate it (I assume its either a mod tool on this website, or in the install folder) and give it a whirl. I think once I have a better understanding of how the ship operates it'll be a lot easier for me going forward.

The mod tools can be found under Nexus The Jupiter Incident\mod_tools. The model viewer is called 'viewer_DX9'.